Debate

[Frater G]

Anyone watch the last debate? I caught the last hour and I thought McCain won in spite of the polls. What say you?

[George the 3rd]

I did. And it's not really a debate but more like a dog and pony show. (I ain't ascribing any particular attribute to either candidate! ;D )

But since it is not a debate but rather a "show" for the voters it would be hard to score it like a debate. And if style is as important as substance I would have to say that in so far as projecting a "presidential persona" I would have to give it to Obama hands down and I think that is what is reflected in the polls regarding the "debate".

[vajramukti]

Oct 9, 2008 14:46:29 GMT -5 Frater G said:

Anyone watch the last debate? I caught the last hour and I thought McCain won in spite of the polls. What say you?

I didn't catch it on TV, I was driving. I did listen to some on Fox News in the truck, but kept losing interest.

[Frater G]

Tonight is the final debate and I predict Obama will win by the polls. I think he will be better coached this time. In the last debate he didn't answer the questions directly in my opinion that's why I thought McCain took it. The polls however are a reflection of liberal media bias. Fox news is bias in the other camp.

Here's a question;

Do any of you suspect political chicanery as a catalyst for the temporary lowering of gas prices? If McCain were leading the polls would there be lower prices just before an election?

[George the 3rd]

Oct 15, 2008 11:27:00 GMT -5 Frater G said:

Here's a question;

Do any of you suspect political chicanery as a catalyst for the temporary lowering of gas prices? If McCain were leading the polls would there be lower prices just before an election?

Manipulation of the markets to affect the outcome of an election?! The next thing you'll try to tell me there will be people on election day at the polls trying to suppress voter participation! Not here! Not in Amer-i-kay!

[Frater G]

I watched it and I thought Obama won because of his demeanor. The mainstream media said this was McCain's best performance. To me McCain was arrogant, blinking and rolling his eyes and seemed to be ruffled. I don't like him, he is a liar, it shows in his eyes. The split screen was interesting though. Obama kept his composure and spoke eloquently. As far as the content, promises promises all candidates promise a better future which never happens. I predict another lame duck leader no matter who wins.

Both believe in free trade which has devastated our manufacturing base. That just shows to whom they are both loyal to.

[vajramukti]

Oct 15, 2008 16:58:11 GMT -5 George the 3rd said:

Oct 15, 2008 11:27:00 GMT -5 Frater G said:

Here's a question;

Do any of you suspect political chicanery as a catalyst for the temporary lowering of gas prices? If McCain were leading the polls would there be lower prices just before an election?

Manipulation of the markets to affect the outcome of an election?! The next thing you'll try to tell me there will be people on election day at the polls trying to suppress voter participation! Not here! Not in Amer-i-kay!

I don't suspect it. It is market driven, and with oil back down to $72 a barrel, we should be seeing gas at about $2.09, and we're not.

Plus, I don't think McCain has the pull to pull it off, and Obama certainly doesn't have the desire.

[vajramukti]

Oct 15, 2008 23:09:34 GMT -5 Frater G said:

I watched it and I thought Obama won because of his demeanor. The mainstream media said this was McCain's best performance. To me McCain was arrogant, blinking and rolling his eyes and seemed to be ruffled. I don't like him, he is a liar, it shows in his eyes. The split screen was interesting though. Obama kept his composure and spoke eloquently. As far as the content, promises promises all candidates promise a better future which never happens. I predict another lame duck leader no matter who wins.

Both believe in free trade which has devastated our manufacturing base. That just shows to whom they are both loyal to.

I think Obama won on demeanor. McCain got to say what he needed to say. I really think both candidates did exactly what they needed to do.

That said, the next four years scare me. Either way it goes. Neither candidate has been able to show me that they will be principle driven leaders. The only principle driven talker in the big 4 is Palin, and her principles are too...immature maybe...or unevolved. It is obvious by listening to her that she is the Reagan Conservative of the ticket, but she needs 10-15 years. Biden is just flat out lying. He hated Obama in the primaries, and now has his head so far up Obama's *** that he will have lost the respect of his fellows when this is all over. McCain is trying way too hard to say what he thinks people want him to say, and trying to please the conservative base without turning away from the moderate to slightly left crowd that is HIS base that he is losing who he is. And Obama is choosing his words so carefully that his honesty is more in doubt than Hillary Clinton's.

No, unfortunately, the good candidates were weeded out early.

[Frater G]

Oct 18, 2008 22:48:06 GMT -5 vajramukti said:

Oct 15, 2008 23:09:34 GMT -5 Frater G said:

I watched it and I thought Obama won because of his demeanor. The mainstream media said this was McCain's best performance. To me McCain was arrogant, blinking and rolling his eyes and seemed to be ruffled. I don't like him, he is a liar, it shows in his eyes. The split screen was interesting though. Obama kept his composure and spoke eloquently. As far as the content, promises promises all candidates promise a better future which never happens. I predict another lame duck leader no matter who wins.

Both believe in free trade which has devastated our manufacturing base. That just shows to whom they are both loyal to.

I think Obama won on demeanor. McCain got to say what he needed to say. I really think both candidates did exactly what they needed to do.

That said, the next four years scare me. Either way it goes. Neither candidate has been able to show me that they will be principle driven leaders. The only principle driven talker in the big 4 is Palin, and her principles are too...immature maybe...or unevolved. It is obvious by listening to her that she is the Reagan Conservative of the ticket, but she needs 10-15 years. Biden is just flat out lying. He hated Obama in the primaries, and now has his head so far up Obama's *** that he will have lost the respect of his fellows when this is all over. McCain is trying way too hard to say what he thinks people want him to say, and trying to please the conservative base without turning away from the moderate to slightly left crowd that is HIS base that he is losing who he is. And Obama is choosing his words so carefully that his honesty is more in doubt than Hillary Clinton's.

No, unfortunately, the good candidates were weeded out early.

Yes they were weeded out. I like Sarah Palin's economic principles however I believe her religious views would make her dangerous in foreign relations, especially in decisions regarding going to war. I doubt if she could bridle her tongue. Pentecostal Christians are the most wacked out of the denominations. Her inexperience in my opinion might not a factor because she would be under the guidance of experienced advisers...she couldn't be any worst than GWB. Look where our so called experienced past presidents have gotten us anyways.

Yeah Biden is like Al Gore who had switched position on many issues. They operate by situational ethics, typical fork tongued politicians. Obama should have chosen Hillary, that would have been a slam dunk. I predict if Obama wins gas prices will soar to a new height unless he relaxes his policies regarding the oil companies. The oil companies have pretty much got the world economy by the neck which angers me.

It surprises me that McCain has so much support. His voting record shows that he was in lock step with Bush the majority of the time. I thought everybody wanted change. The man lives large and has an excess of assets. I guess voters are not educated or do not care about his past performance or his lifestyle. If McCain pulls this one off we will have four more years of business as usual.

You know where I live here I drive through many diverse neighborhoods. I noticed that in middle to upper class white areas there are McCain Palin yard signs everywhere. Very Few Obama Bidin. It is the opposite in minority areas. I believe this is a partially racially driven election.

The media is mostly responsible for keeping the herds of sheep veiled when it comes to issues and voting records. In the country's newspapers there should be a page dedicated once a week to outlining the candidates past performance. The John Birch Society used to have a bulletin called TRIM which outlines all the elected representatives voting records. I wonder if they still put it out.

[Frater G]

Oct 18, 2008 22:38:49 GMT -5 vajramukti said:

Oct 15, 2008 16:58:11 GMT -5 George the 3rd said:

Manipulation of the markets to affect the outcome of an election?! The next thing you'll try to tell me there will be people on election day at the polls trying to suppress voter participation! Not here! Not in Amer-i-kay!

I don't suspect it. It is market driven, and with oil back down to $72 a barrel, we should be seeing gas at about $2.09, and we're not.

Plus, I don't think McCain has the pull to pull it off, and Obama certainly doesn't have the desire.

I spoke with Gandolph the other night and he was telling me that gas is over four dollars a gallon (converting to American currency) where he lives in British Columbia. That shouldn't be being that Canada exports so much oil to the US. Why gouge the consumer at the pump? There has to be other factors why market speculators set the price.

I wouldn't look at it as McCain having the pull but that prices could be set in order to sway voters. The Republican party has traditionally been on the side of big business oil. It's not like the oil companies will feel the pinch...you know?

[vajramukti]

Oct 21, 2008 14:07:20 GMT -5 Frater G said:

Yes they were weeded out. I like Sarah Palin's economic principles however I believe her religious views would make her dangerous in foreign relations, especially in decisions regarding going to war. I doubt if she could bridle her tongue. Pentecostal Christians are the most wacked out of the denominations. Her inexperience in my opinion might not a factor because she would be under the guidance of experienced advisers...she couldn't be any worst than GWB. Look where our so called experienced past presidents have gotten us anyways.

Agreed.

Yeah Biden is like Al Gore who had switched position on many issues. They operate by situational ethics, typical fork tongued politicians. Obama should have chosen Hillary, that would have been a slam dunk.

Thank goodness he didn't. We don't need 3 presidents at once.

I predict if Obama wins gas prices will soar to a new height unless he relaxes his policies regarding the oil companies.

Absolutely. We'll be paying what they pay in Europe. At least. Honestly, if Obama wins, I don't know that the American economy will accept his policies.

It surprises me that McCain has so much support. His voting record shows that he was in lock step with Bush the majority of the time. I thought everybody wanted change. The man lives large and has an excess of assets. I guess voters are not educated or do not care about his past performance or his lifestyle.

I think people do want change. But I think deep down, people are afraid of the change that Obama will bring, or that he will bring it too quickly. The most fundamental difference between conservative and liberal is the quickness with which change is accepted. Conservatives are...well...more conservative about it. Liberals tend to want change faster. We need the balance of both. But Obama is a little farther left than alot of people are comfortable with, whether they admit it or not. IMO.

McCain scares conservatives because he is left of a lot of issues that are fundamental to their cause. But they are not as scared of him as they are of Obama. AND, McCain has been the republican darling of the left for a long time, until he ran against them.

If McCain pulls this one off we will have four more years of business as usual.

I don't think so. I don't think McCain will get everything right, but he will head a new direction, slowly, and 300 million of us will get to see it unfold. My fear of Obama is that he will change too much too fast, and we will be too far in before we know it. This is a big ship. It needs to change course with long term planning, not sudden adjustments.

You know where I live here I drive through many diverse neighborhoods. I noticed that in middle to upper class white areas there are McCain Palin yard signs everywhere. Very Few Obama Bidin. It is the opposite in minority areas. I believe this is a partially racially driven election.

I think you are right. I think it has a lot to do with taxes though. In neighborhoods where people don't pay taxes, and live off of government entitlement programs, they want more of it. And in the neighborhoods that fund those programs, they want less of it.

The media is mostly responsible for keeping the herds of sheep veiled when it comes to issues and voting records.

Absolutely. The media largely supports Obama and he has no record to speak of. The advantage in such a media campaign would go to McCain.

It will be very close. In the last 40 years of presidential elections, the media has overestimated the democrats poll numbers by larger margins than what McCain is currently behind. If this holds true, the race will be nearly a dead heat, with a slight advantage to McCain. It will definitely be another electoral college decision.

Either way, as I said before, the good candidates were weeded out in the primaries. I would like to have seen Romney vs. Clinton. As it is, I am wondering how to survive the next four years, regardless of the winner. Contrary to media polls, myself and most of the people I know are in far better financial/economic positions than we were four years ago.

[Frater G]

Absolutely. We'll be paying what they pay in Europe. At least. Honestly, if Obama wins, I don't know that the American economy will accept his policies.

That will have to be seen. America's economy if you look at it cascades from interest rates set by the federal reserve. The Fed can slow down or stimulate the economy by setting prime interest rates. Job loss I believe is the main factor coupled with inflation. One solution is alternative energy which is plausible. And change in trade policies for now. Free trade would work if America could compete environmentally and in wage. But how could that be? That would mean a unifying of standards. What would that mean?

I think people do want change. But I think deep down, people are afraid of the change that Obama will bring, or that he will bring it too quickly. The most fundamental difference between conservative and liberal is the quickness with which change is accepted. Conservatives are...well...more conservative about it. Liberals tend to want change faster. We need the balance of both. But Obama is a little farther left than alot of people are comfortable with, whether they admit it or not. IMO.

McCain scares conservatives because he is left of a lot of issues that are fundamental to their cause. But they are not as scared of him as they are of Obama. AND, McCain has been the republican darling of the left for a long time, until he ran against them.

In my opinion the conservative base today are mostly children of middle class to upper class parents thus they never had to really struggle. The definition of conservatism and liberalism has shifted. I think a lot has to do with the economy....which hits all.

I remember reading somewhere that our Founding Fathers were coined "The Great Liberals" because they rebelled against what was considered traditional moral and political standards. Our Founding Fathers no doubt had struggled....right? They wanted change and they wanted it as soon as possible. So what we must look at today is what is really threatening of Americans right to freedom....FREEDOM! Does Obama pose a threat really? Does McCain? Who do you think is more compromised?... McCain IMO because... he had longer exposure to lobbyist's temptations plus his past voting record.

I think we need quick change and we need it right now and why not? I want quick change...like our Founding Fathers wanted. Perhaps if more people wanted quick change maybe this country could then begin to turn for the better.

[vajramukti]

Oct 27, 2008 1:24:29 GMT -5 Frater G said:

I remember reading somewhere that our Founding Fathers were coined "The Great Liberals" because they rebelled against what was considered traditional moral and political standards. Our Founding Fathers no doubt had struggled....right?

But they struggled against government, and wrote a constitution to limit that scope. Obama was quoted today from something he said a while back talking about the constitution being a document of "negative liberty," outlining what the government cannot do to us and he criticized the founding fathers for not outlining the rights of the government over the people.

Our country was based on principles of individual liberty and limited government, principles which, by his own admission, Obama feels are incomplete. By his own words, Barack Obama seeks to give the government more control over your life, and take more of your money in taxes to distribute as entitlements to those who have not earned it.

And if that isn't bad enough, the very antithesis of our constitution, we all know that it won't happen. The government control will happen, the taxes will happen, but the people who benefit will be the government. We have seen it in the Soviet Union, we see it in every petty dictatorship in the world, and we see it all over socialist Europe.

Europe...England...oppressed by their monarchy for centuries, a society of indentured servants, happy now to exchange freedom for entitlement, and no wonder. They were oppressed by government for so long, they feel like the government owes them, and it does. But they are blindly paying for it, in a sort of willing, falsely blissful ignorance. Others thought the government owed them nothing more than opportunity and the freedom to find it. Those guys came here, and now everyone in the world is trying to get here to get a little of what we have.

Why do those in the Middle East hate us? Israel? No. It is our prosperity. If we are the infidels, and they follow the will of Allah, then why do we prosper while they eat sand? Oh, their governments prosper, thanks to our economy. But the common people who are held under the thumb of the government and only get to know what they are told are taught from birth that our prosperity makes us evil.

The jews that found the land of milk and honey found it in New York, Hollywood, and Ft. Lauderdale.

The world wants to be us, because we have shown the world what it could become if government would stay mostly out of the way. Barack Obama seeks to change that, and make us more like the rest of the world. If we wanted to be them, we wouldn't have come here and started our own country.

They wanted change and they wanted it as soon as possible. So what we must look at today is what is really threatening of Americans right to freedom....FREEDOM!

They wanted freedom from a government who taxed their prosperity and redistributed it as it saw fit. Freedom threatening freedom? No. It is the fear of freedom being taken away.

Does Obama pose a threat really? Does McCain? Who do you think is more compromised?...

Well, Biden was unable to answer the call to separate Obama's proposed policies of wealth redistribution from Marxism, unable to give an answer as to whether Obama would retaliate militarily if his leadership were challenged with an attack on American soil, and then, to top it off, Obama's own autobiography was quoted today with phrases like him being drawn towards Marxists. I then heard an interview he gave in 2001 where he stated that he did not feel the Civil Rights Movement was really all that radical because it never dealt with the redistribution of American wealth. Called them "redistributive policies" and "reparative policies."

McCain IMO because... he had longer exposure to lobbyist's temptations plus his past voting record.

It's easy to blame Bush. He is the President. But he is a lame duck republican with a democrat congress. "George Bush's failed economic policies..." What are they? Seriously. I asked here once if anyone could name three things that Obama wanted to change and there has been no answer, other than mine (raise taxes, redistribute wealth, and choke off energy production). So what are Bush's failed economic policies? The one where he wanted more oversight and regulation of large companies that were dangerously close to becoming constitutional monopolies? The one where he lowered taxes and stimulated economic growth? How about the economic stimulus checks that were so criticized by the dems who are now trying to push a similar package through Congress in time to make Obama look like a hero before the election?

No. Most of Bush's policies have been blocked by Congress, those guys who criticize Bush's 30% approval rating while trying to take the focus off of their own lackluster 9%. They have been blocking court appointments for years. They had a cow when Bush fired 90 something federal judges. Clinton fired ALL OF THEM. Double standards and no core principles.

I think we need quick change and we need it right now and why not? I want quick change...like our Founding Fathers wanted. Perhaps if more people wanted quick change maybe this country could then begin to turn for the better.

But, from Obama, we have yet to hear what this change is. Change for the sake of change? Widespread socialist policies bordering on Marxism? Seriously? Because that is what Barack Obama wants.