Bicentennial Man

[Frater G]

The other day I watched the movie Bicentennial Man. It was a very good movie in my opinion. There were a lot of deep philosophical issues brought up. Near the end Andrew the robot (Robin Williams) faced a dilemma. He was essentially immortal however he was special because he had a strong sense of self. He became a humanitarian. Andrew's desire was to become human so he developed the technology and had upgraded his programming and body to where he had a central nervous system and with that emotions. Several times during the movie though he was brought up in front of a court for the purpose of being declared human and each time he was denied. At one hearing he had proven that he had all the emotions of a human but nevertheless he was still immortal and the judge ruled that humanity wasn't ready to accept an immortal human therefore he was deemed still a robot. So he upgraded one last time in order to become mortal. He thus aged just like a human would. Also he didn't want to outlive the love of his life. At the end of his life he was finally declared human.

So my question is if any of you could become immortal and it was deemed legal would you? Or would you not and why? Also the question what is human comes to mind. I have heard people say "that person isn't human" mainly because of lack of morals and character. What is the definition of human then? Is it strictly DNA or does it also depend on morality?

[elijah]

May 12, 2008 20:14:51 GMT -5 Frater G said:

So my question is if any of you could become immortal and it was deemed legal would you? Or would you not and why? Also the question what is human comes to mind. I have heard people say "that person isn't human" mainly because of lack of morals and character. What is the definition of human then? Is it strictly DNA or does it also depend on morality?

I am immortal.

My body is not and not for anything would I want to have this particular vehicle for eternity. I have borrowed this human form, which might have been a choice or a predetermined event, as part of a spiritual development or learning curve.

It is a well known fact that the law is an ass (donkey) and that legalities are devoid of kindness, charity, spirituality and of comprehension other than that which can be seen, documented and argued. Therefore IMHO for humanity to moot the legality of being termed immortal or not, is so bloody stupid it is beyond discussion! Typical waste of time and energy and the only persons who will score are the lawyers.

Morals and character are also words developed to describe the "being" of humans only as one does not normally ponder the finesse of animals.

The human being is an entity that is conscious (in part) of reason, ideas, thought - all abstract events. Character is the person that that human becomes and has through the correct cultivation of the abstract side of his psyche, and morals are what should emerge as being right and correct through strength of character.

I am not sure whether DNA as the HUMAN DNA is as important as the genetic hereditary DNA of family in character and morals, but normally those are generally bred in the bone.

[George the 3rd]

I am immortal.

But the difference is whether or not you/I would be continuously aware of our immortal condition with recall of all past experiences.

It was assumed that Andrew would remain "immortal" but that would have been conditional on the infinite existence of the earth and the materials used to compose his "body".

My/our prayer is that if we are immortal, the intellectual self is as immortal as the spiritual self so that though our physical selves might fade away, what remains has that continuous awareness.

[elijah]

Andrew was created as an android without that spark that separates Life from anything that cannot be held to have that ineffibility. He "created" his own ineffibility but had not the infinite state which can only be known as 'divine' and I think that is what riled.

You cannot have conditional immortality. And nothing is dependant on the continuance of the existence of earth or the materials that compose a body.

Andrew had to decompose to compose or to become fully composite.

And as I said elsewhere, I believe past experience is collective and not individual, and it takes the sum of parts to make the whole.

[George the 3rd]

And as I said elsewhere, I believe past experience is collective and not individual, and it takes the sum of parts to make the whole.

I'm on the same page with you there.

[elijah]

May 16, 2008 15:07:55 GMT -5 George the 3rd said:

And as I said elsewhere, I believe past experience is collective and not individual, and it takes the sum of parts to make the whole.

I'm on the same page with you there.

I know ;D I saw you there!! Most interesting discussion with some very thoughtful insight which maybe makes the concept become less threatening and hopefully lessen the fear of death for many of the silent Watchers of that Forum.

[michael]

I agree with Elijah on this one....one of the reasons why we reincarnate is because we wear out our bodies. By the time we reach wisdom of a sort, we are old and physically not capable. So evolution is necessary. evolution is gained in the death of the old and recreation of a better model.
A Gnostic thought......I think that is why we keep reinventing the things(cars, houses,food etc) of this world, it is a reflection of our immortality, we Gnow we will be back.
Michael

[vajramukti]

Would I accept immortality?

In a heartbeat.

Would I accept immortality here, in this body, on this planet?

In a heartbeat.

[michael]

Vaj at some point during that endless life, you would'nt get bored or tired of it all. Would you not want to move on to the great unknown.
Or are there conditions to that immortality?
michael

[elijah]

Immortality can only be unconditional it is an absolute - irrefutable, uncontrolable and incessant. The only conditions that I can think of (and they too are all of the above) are total happiness and pure love, both of which can exist in the state of mortality through profound meditation, introspection and comtemplation. Maybe I am just rambling with words but this is a chain of thought which I considered worthy of writing down ;D

[Frater G]

May 19, 2008 22:21:41 GMT -5 michael said:

Vaj at some point during that endless life, you would'nt get bored or tired of it all. Would you not want to move on to the great unknown.
Or are there conditions to that immortality?
michael

I think physical immortality would be painful in that one would outlive all one's children and loves.

[George the 3rd]

For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?

And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?

Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.

And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.

And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.

[elijah]

what a splendid quotation

[George the 3rd]

XIX

The Ghosts

Never stoops the soaring vulture
On his quarry in the desert,
On the sick or wounded bison,
But another vulture, watching
From his high aerial look-out,
Sees the downward plunge, and follows;
And a third pursues the second,
Coming from the invisible ether,
First a speck, and then a vulture,
Till the air is dark with pinions.
So disasters come not singly;
But as if they watched and waited,
Scanning one another's motions,
When the first descends, the others
Follow, follow, gathering flock-wise
Round their victim, sick and wounded,
First a shadow, then a sorrow,
Till the air is dark with anguish.
Now, o'er all the dreary North-land,
Mighty Peboan, the Winter,
Breathing on the lakes and rivers,
Into stone had changed their waters.
From his hair he shook the snow-flakes,
Till the plains were strewn with whiteness,
One uninterrupted level,
As if, stooping, the Creator
With his hand had smoothed them over.
Through the forest, wide and wailing,
Roamed the hunter on his snow-shoes;
In the village worked the women,
Pounded maize, or dressed the deer-skin;
And the young men played together
On the ice the noisy ball-play,
On the plain the dance of snow-shoes.
One dark evening, after sundown,
In her wigwam Laughing Water
Sat with old Nokomis, waiting
For the steps of Hiawatha
Homeward from the hunt returning.
On their faces gleamed the firelight,
Painting them with streaks of crimson,
In the eyes of old Nokomis
Glimmered like the watery moonlight,
In the eyes of Laughing Water
Glistened like the sun in water;
And behind them crouched their shadows
In the corners of the wigwam,
And the smoke In wreaths above them
Climbed and crowded through the smoke-flue.
Then the curtain of the doorway
From without was slowly lifted;
Brighter glowed the fire a moment,
And a moment swerved the smoke-wreath,
As two women entered softly,
Passed the doorway uninvited,
Without word of salutation,
Without sign of recognition,
Sat down in the farthest corner,
Crouching low among the shadows.
From their aspect and their garments,
Strangers seemed they in the village;
Very pale and haggard were they,
As they sat there sad and silent,
Trembling, cowering with the shadows.
Was it the wind above the smoke-flue,
Muttering down into the wigwam?
Was it the owl, the Koko-koho,
Hooting from the dismal forest?
Sure a voice said in the silence:
"These are corpses clad in garments,
These are ghosts that come to haunt you,
From the kingdom of Ponemah,
From the land of the Hereafter!"
Homeward now came Hiawatha
From his hunting in the forest,
With the snow upon his tresses,
And the red deer on his shoulders.
At the feet of Laughing Water
Down he threw his lifeless burden;
Nobler, handsomer she thought him,
Than when first he came to woo her,
First threw down the deer before her,
As a token of his wishes,
As a promise of the future.
Then he turned and saw the strangers,
Cowering, crouching with the shadows;
Said within himself, "Who are they?
What strange guests has Minnehaha?"
But he questioned not the strangers,
Only spake to bid them welcome
To his lodge, his food, his fireside.
When the evening meal was ready,
And the deer had been divided,
Both the pallid guests, the strangers,
Springing from among the shadows,
Seized upon the choicest portions,
Seized the white fat of the roebuck,
Set apart for Laughing Water,
For the wife of Hiawatha;
Without asking, without thanking,
Eagerly devoured the morsels,
Flitted back among the shadows
In the corner of the wigwam.
Not a word spake Hiawatha,
Not a motion made Nokomis,
Not a gesture Laughing Water;
Not a change came o'er their features;
Only Minnehaha softly
Whispered, saying, "They are famished;
Let them do what best delights them;
Let them eat, for they are famished."
Many a daylight dawned and darkened,
Many a night shook off the daylight
As the pine shakes off the snow-flakes
From the midnight of its branches;
Day by day the guests unmoving
Sat there silent in the wigwam;
But by night, in storm or starlight,
Forth they went into the forest,
Bringing fire-wood to the wigwam,
Bringing pine-cones for the burning,
Always sad and always silent.
And whenever Hiawatha
Came from fishing or from hunting,
When the evening meal was ready,
And the food had been divided,
Gliding from their darksome corner,
Came the pallid guests, the strangers,
Seized upon the choicest portions
Set aside for Laughing Water,
And without rebuke or question
Flitted back among the shadows.
Never once had Hiawatha
By a word or look reproved them;
Never once had old Nokomis
Made a gesture of impatience;
Never once had Laughing Water
Shown resentment at the outrage.
All had they endured in silence,
That the rights of guest and stranger,
That the virtue of free-giving,
By a look might not be lessened,
By a word might not be broken.
Once at midnight Hiawatha,
Ever wakeful, ever watchful,
In the wigwam, dimly lighted
By the brands that still were burning,
By the glimmering, flickering firelight
Heard a sighing, oft repeated,
From his couch rose Hiawatha,
From his shaggy hides of bison,
Pushed aside the deer-skin curtain,
Saw the pallid guests, the shadows,
Sitting upright on their couches,
Weeping in the silent midnight.
And he said: "O guests! why is it
That your hearts are so afflicted,
That you sob so in the midnight?
Has perchance the old Nokomis,
Has my wife, my Minnehaha,
Wronged or grieved you by unkindness,
Failed in hospitable duties?"
Then the shadows ceased from weeping,
Ceased from sobbing and lamenting,
And they said, with gentle voices:
"We are ghosts of the departed,
Souls of those who once were with you.
From the realms of Chibiabos
Hither have we come to try you,
Hither have we come to warn you.
"Cries of grief and lamentation
Reach us in the Blessed Islands;
Cries of anguish from the living,
Calling back their friends departed,
Sadden us with useless sorrow.
Therefore have we come to try you;
No one knows us, no one heeds us.
We are but a burden to you,
And we see that the departed
Have no place among the living.
"Think of this, O Hiawatha!
Speak of it to all the people,
That henceforward and forever
They no more with lamentations
Sadden the souls of the departed
In the Islands of the Blessed.
"Do not lay such heavy burdens
In the graves of those you bury,
Not such weight of furs and wampum,
Not such weight of pots and kettles,
For the spirits faint beneath them.
Only give them food to carry,
Only give them fire to light them.
"Four days is the spirit's journey
To the land of ghosts and shadows,
Four its lonely night encampments;
Four times must their fires be lighted.
Therefore, when the dead are buried,
Let a fire, as night approaches,
Four times on the grave be kindled,
That the soul upon its journey
May not lack the cheerful firelight,
May not grope about in darkness.
"Farewell, noble Hiawatha!
We have put you to the trial,
To the proof have put your patience,
By the insult of our presence,
By the outrage of our actions.
We have found you great and noble.
Fail not in the greater trial,
Faint not In the harder struggle."
When they ceased, a sudden darkness
Fell and filled the silent wigwam.
Hiawatha heard a rustle
As of garments trailing by him,
Heard the curtain of the doorway
Lifted by a hand he saw not,
Felt the cold breath of the night air,
For a moment saw the starlight;
But he saw the ghosts no longer,
Saw no more the wandering spirits
From the kingdom of Ponemah,
From the land of the Hereafter.

[vajramukti]

May 19, 2008 22:21:41 GMT -5 michael said:

Vaj at some point during that endless life, you would'nt get bored or tired of it all. Would you not want to move on to the great unknown.
Or are there conditions to that immortality?
michael

My only condition (if I were allowed one) would be to cease the physical aging process.